Real estate in Brooklyn?
Published by jules July 5th, 2007 in Personal Finance.Yesterday was the 4th of July — and it was the first time since living here that we did not have a great fireworks experience on our roof deck. Normally, we host a fabulous party and watch the fireworks display from Manhattan from the deck. When we went up last night, we did not recognize almost anyone — despite the fact that we have been here in the building for just over 5 years now –longer than most other neighbors. And while some of our new neighbors are quite friendly, we really feel like the renters we are in a building full of condo-owners. While I have complained bitterly about the housing market here in Brooklyn to friends, family, colleagues, and just about anyone who would listen — and have been trying to find an “in” for at least 3 of the 5 years here, I haven’t expressed my feelings here on Andamom.com
As most Brooklyn/Manhattanites will attest to, our “piece of the rock” is pricey. There are 1 bedroom condos going for $619K in this area — and there was an article that I read recently about real estate brokers who cater to people who want to a property under 300 square feet. Now, I understand that I’ll have to pay more and get less space here — don’t get me wrong– I just think that there has to be something for me and my family.
As you all know by now, we are a 4 family unit — meaning that we are two parents and two kids (13 and 1). Currently, we have 907 square feet, 1 bathroom, and 2 bedrooms. It may not be perfect (that would include our own outdoor space, an extra bathroom, and 3 bedrooms) — but it isn’t half-bad. We’re situated close enough to our jobs, school, and day care that if we need to get to any one these locations in a hurry, we can. We value being close and are thrilled that we have a parking garage space — and that roof deck.
I figured that the best way to find the needle in a haystack place was to canvas the area — so we did the following:
1) Searched for a place on various websites: nytimes.com, craigslist.org, brownstoner.com, trulia.com
2) Contact real estate brokers directly: corcoran.com, halstead.com, brownharrisstevens.com, awayerealty.com, fillmore.com, harborview.com, ahlty.com, elliman.com, and countless others…
3) Walk around the area writing down contact information for new buildings being erected
4) Post our need on: parkslopeparents.com (forum for parents) and a few other sites
Needless to say, nothing has transpired. We were almost in contract on one place, but the seller was unable to assemble the condo board’s financials and offering plan after 2 months of repeatted requests with our lawyer. So, we realized it was not meant to be.
My daughter is going to graduate from high school in 5 years and my son will attend pre-K in 3 years — so while on the one hand we can live wherever we want in the 5 boroughs, we also feel the need to be located in an area that has good elementary schools. When we located here 5 years ago from Washington, DC, I chose this specific location because the standardized test results of the school in this area was high. The apartment was found after a visit to the school produced the boundaries that one needed to live within to attend. My daughter had a wonderful experience at the school, and I wouldn’t be adverse to letting my son go there — if only we could find a place.
It is a weird thing not being able to find a place within our means. Both my husband and I are professionals earning salaries that aren’t too shabby — but after child care, insurance, rent, and other expenses, we realize that we are very middle class. That means that the first time home buyer options aren’t available to us — yet the real estate is too expensive for us. Our family is stuck in the middle.
Now, during this period, I have had the opportunity to speak with many other couples and singles who face similar situations. People have suggested a variety of things to us:
1) Create a corporation and buy a building. Live in one apartment and rent the others. Yet, these buildings go for at least $1.5 million –if not $2.5 or more…
2) Buy a building with another family. This involves considerable trust that the other family will not default or experience hardship. We’re still on the fence about this topic.
3) Get an unconventional mortgage — uh no thanks, I don’t want an interest only or a variable rate mortgage.
4) Move to a less desireable location… As stated above, if the 1-year-old is going to attend school in less than 5 years (I want to remain in one location and not lose money after spending it on closing and moving costs), this won’t work for us. Besides, I want to ensure that my impressionable teenager is living in a good area during high school.
So — we’re still here. We need to think about the long-term, but thus far I don’t have any new insights. If you’re in a similar boat — or you have other thoughts to share, please do so.
my thoughts exactly. in any other city (except for maybe san francisco, london or tokyo) i would be able to purchase a home on my own, have a nice car, a backyard, and probably a little less stress. perhaps the solution is to relocate to a city where not only the rich can enjoy the simpler things in life.
Can I take a wild guess and say that you live in the PS 321 zone? Am I wrong?
Here’s your answer: there is more than one good public school in New York City. There are numerous good elementaries in Brooklyn that don’t get the attention 321 does (a holdover from the days, years ago, when it really was only one of the only good ones. Perceptions lag a long time behind reality). If you’re in the Park Slope area, almost all the local elementaries are very good–39, 107 and 154, for instance. Likewise neighborhoods like Boerum Hill, though I’m not as familiar at first hand.
If all the areas are out of your price range, there’s Queens. An apartment in Forest Hills would be way cheaper, with excellent area schools.
Why not just get over Park Slope? If it’s the only area “good” enough for your impressionable teenager, that’s a kid that will have a pretty limited view of life. Schools are looking up in other neighborhoods that you might consider less “good,” due to parental involvement and hard work. And in those areas, you’d probably find more space at a better price, and forge more lasting friendships and have an opportunity to become part of a community less blinkered than that in Park Slope. Get a fixer upper in one of those areas, roll up your sleeves, and join the rest of us middle class folks who not only can’t afford, but don’t aspire to, Park Slope.
You would not be averse to letting your son go there.
Try and find a 2 family building where the rental income will go towards qualifying for a bigger mortgage.
That’s not an option that you noted above but I think it is the most realistic.
There are also some affordable 2BRs along Eastern parkway which may appreciate enough for you to “trade up” to PS in a couple of years.
You’re not alone. And it isn’t just in NYC. Take a look at the real estate market overall, and you’ll find the cost of the median home has outpaced the median income. The market is taking note, and starting to come down.
I often find myself wondering what people do to afford those huge houses (when I’m at home in Ohio), or to afford those 900$ per square foot apartments in NYC.
I just don’t get it. You can’t count on appreciation to make living effectively free anymore, and the growth potential of real estate in the mid term could be rough. I decided this last go round that I couldn’t gamble with a 10% drop in value, so I decided to keep renting.
Who knows, but something has to happen. When the above median family can’t afford a median priced house, the sellers run out of buyers.
We are in Kensington for a lot of the reasons you’ve mentioned and able to find a home for what an apartment would cost in the Slope. We have to make some sacrafices in terms of walk to restuarants but its safe, diverse, friendly and quick. It’s not crime crazy like other gentrifying hoods and has ps230 w a gifted program.
We are in the exact same circumstances except for some of the details (2 kids, 6 and 2, lived here 7 years, moved from chicago.)
Wanna go in on a building?
The frustrating response to read is the move response - its not only the schools at this point - its that we are already invested in the community, from the pta, to the park committee to the local shopkeepers, etc. I’m not sure a piece of rock is worth leaving home to parts unknown like forest hills, other slope portions, etc., which I’m sure are fine neighborhoods, they just aren’t ours.
hope you can figure this out and let us know the answer….good luck!
carrie - You are so right. I wonder if a less expensive location is in our future… We cannot relocate right now — but maybe when my daughter is finished with high school.
slopedad - Actually, we don’t live in the PS 321 area (apparently a surprise to you). My husband and I both have short commutes to lower Manhattan (Forest Hills where a coworker lives would take well over an hour — and I know that because she whines bitterly every morning). Further, my son is in day care here — and it took us forever to find a day care (the waiting lists were quite long for children under 2). My daughter is in middle school here too. I wrote a response about my take on “changing schools” in my response to Fior shown below.
Fior - I appreciate your perspective — but I don’t happen to agree. I’ve looked at a number of schools, talked to tons of parents throughout the area, and feel strongly that schools don’t change as quickly as some people would make you believe. We’ve already forged relationships in our area over the past five years too.
slim jim - It is funny, I was just talking to a friend tonight about how neither of us wants to be a landlord– we don’t want the responsibility in addition to everything else in our lives. I’ve known a few people move to the E. Parkway area — but because I am not elated with the schools, I don’t want to move there because I know then that I’d be forced to go with a private elementary school in a few years…
Jason - There are a few responses to who can afford these places… Many people bought before these places were worth anything and held them until recently –now they just flip. Others work in banking or hedge funds –and a few are major stars (think Heath Ledger or Jennifer Connelly)… And still others have another path to $$$. I’m aware that there are others like me — but there are people who can easily afford to pay in cash for $2.5 million brownstones…
kensington gal - We thought about Kensington - and truthfully it is one location that I would like to explore further. We’re in that vicinity when my daughter plays soccer — so maybe we’ll start exploring this Fall.
Gus - Gosh — you really do understand exactly what I am feeling. I feel like I get this place now — not always — but I have invested 5 years in figuring it out. That isn’t to say that I couldn’t do the same in another location — but I am proud of my investment.
Red hook is the answer,
Hey Jules,
I am obsessed with nyc RE and, during my surfing this morning, found this
http://www.corcoran.com/property/nd/detail_listings.asp?ndevid=334
I know 2BRs may be too small but it is a condo and CC seem low. 2nd St is great but I guess it’s too far south at 4th ave.
What do you think?
Jules - have you checked out PS20 in Clinton Hill? The spring edition of The Hill has a cover article on local schools. Also, being one of those who “bought before these places were worth anything and held them” - and am still holding - I’d like to comment that selling after having invested twenty years in working with your neighbors to improve the community and bring more value to it is not, generally, characterized as “flipping” (see your comment to Jason, above). Flippers are those who buy low, typically do a fast, cheap and dirty renovation (and sometimes not even that), and resell as fast as possible for as much as they can get. The price I paid when I bought my house was every dime I could afford at the time, and far from “nothing” (and I had to threaten a lawsuit in order to get a mortgage, as the area was still redlined). But it was a risk I was prepared to take… and it seems to me that you’re fairly risk averse, which is fine, but it limits your options. Even when I bought (being lower middle class, the hassles of landlorddom were part of what made the purchase possible), I had to rent out two of the four floors in order to cover the monthly costs. Now I can afford to occupy three, which is all I really need. And believe me, the difference between the purchase price and what my house is worth now was more than made up in the cost of money spent on restoration, and time sunk into community meetings, block association activities, lobbying local elected representatives, swapping labor with neighbors on home improvement projects, etc. When a commenter on Brownstoner, months back, wrote that “we need to get out all the oldtimers who aren’t paying taxes, and then the schools will improve,” I managed to restrain myself from asking how that commenter (a financial professional, no less) thought I’d held onto my house if I wasn’t paying taxes. But when a twenty-something “developer” in a preppy outfit rang my doorbell last week, announced he’d researched what I’d paid for my house 20 years ago and could offer me “what for you would be a lot of money” (undoubtedly a sum far below market value that he assumed I would look on as a fortune as (at 51) I was obviously senile), and referred to me genially as “an oldtimer,” I finally took serious exception. Now THAT’s a flipper. Don’t get me wrong: I’m very happy for those moving into the area who find a ton of newly-arrived amenities and don’t have to go through the same process in the new century. But this is my home, and my community (as you’ve indicated Park Slope is yours), and I’d prefer not to be referred to as a “flipper” or an “oldtimer.” I truly don’t mean to sound hostile, and sorry if this is off topic. But the kid on my stoop last week actually said “it’s time for you to cash out.” I told him I’m not dead yet, and my health is just fine - and when I’m ready to sell, he’ll find the house on a broker’s website.
love the hook - Red Hook (down near Fairway for example) might be a great option if it weren’t in a major flood zone, the nearest subway was considerably closer, and well –it weren’t horribly overpriced for a place with schools that haven’t yet improved. I’m not that far away though — and spend considerable time in the area…
slim jim - Thanks for looking… With the four of us (including a 13 and a 1 year old), we feel that we need at least 900 square feet.
Fior - Your feelings are well appreciated… I’ve had talks with the neighbors who have been around here for decades that feel like you do. I wrote about my run in with a neighbor who has been here since 1949 — and her brownstone must be worth millions (http://andamom.com/?p=94) — but there is no price that one could pay for what she has created. I like this sense of community — and I apologize if you felt that I was using the flipping word incorrectly… I do notice that people who were in places for a period, profited, and used that profit to move on to multiple other places.